tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-803595820939776322.post5474704549558790998..comments2023-10-30T06:38:39.170-07:00Comments on Snow Branches: Zen and the Art of DebaucheryUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-803595820939776322.post-9104445965561305342013-11-08T02:08:50.306-08:002013-11-08T02:08:50.306-08:00David, in my own experience the spiritual teachers...David, in my own experience the spiritual teachers who have taught me the most are without exception those who have brought together psychological awareness with spiritual practice. They know then, at least to some extent, of what their own 'stuff' consists, and are less likely to simply project and justify it. It seems to me that this is a crucial step in the bringing of Buddhist teachings into the C21st, and the various engaged Buddhist networks have helped. Maybe this is what makes the 'translation' for the Western mind?rosellehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00971482422276765335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-803595820939776322.post-47584863575344311662013-11-07T15:16:17.078-08:002013-11-07T15:16:17.078-08:00Roselle, thank you so much for leaving such a thou...Roselle, thank you so much for leaving such a thoughtful comment! I agree that the traditional eastern mindset can be pretty hard to relate to by us westerners (including me). On justifications based on life and death being seen as equally meaningless or suffering being an illusion, I wrote a little post called <a href="http://davidmashton.blogspot.ca/2011/03/gazing-at-ox-solipsism-and-being.html" rel="nofollow">Gazing at the Ox - Solipsism: Trapped in Tozan’s First Rank</a>. Jung's concept of the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_(psychology)" rel="nofollow">Shadow</a> is totally new to me and looks fascinating. Thanks for the introduction!David Ashtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18339979176989832285noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-803595820939776322.post-62645728795590589952013-11-07T02:20:23.943-08:002013-11-07T02:20:23.943-08:00David, I'm so glad you raised this. I've b...David, I'm so glad you raised this. I've been meaning to get back here and tell you how much I admire this post since you posted it. <br /><br />This is the shadow of spiritual teachings, isn't it; and it too needs to be acknowledged. I think as you suggested the ego's habits die hard, even when we 'know' what is the right path; but I also think there's a difficulty in cultural translation: despite having studied and practised Zen (more, or less, mindfully!) for 40 years, I'm aware that aspects of it don't translate well to the Western mind. I'm not meaning, by the way, that we misunderstand the Eastern intent so much as finding to hard to comprehend how what we see as hypocrisy might not be seen so in the East; but still, of course, we need congruence. In its harsher aspects, where life and death are perhaps seen as equally meaningless, traditional Zen doesn't work for many of us in the West - and there is a strange kind of justification in some Zen circles, as in New Age circles often, too, in seeing suffering/the infliction of suffering as being just an illusion – meaning that maybe suffering doesn't matter, in that view. That stands in contrast to the Bodhisattva Vow, to me.<br /><br />Hmmm got myself all tied up in knots there; not sure what I was trying to say except THANK YOU for raising this.<br /><br />I liked very much this statement of yours: 'We practice Zen for the benefit of beings. Selflessly seducing a student or skilfully slaughtering another being - on the battlefield, the electric chair or the barnyard is using Zen as a means to an end that doesn’t justify the means. To me, this is Zen and the art of debauchery.' YES. <br /><br />There's a Jungian book on the shadow, in which, I think, is included an essay on the guru-shadow: 'Embracing the Shadow'. It's shocking when our spiritual teachers appear not to walk their talk; a warning against the dangers of elevating mere humans to the status of gurus. My teachers are now the more-than-human world, and individuals who are by no means just Buddhist.<br /><br />And I also really liked Koun Franz's contribution at the end. Great piece, again, David. xrosellehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00971482422276765335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-803595820939776322.post-83508160573804944992013-10-29T18:14:12.435-07:002013-10-29T18:14:12.435-07:00Thanks, Bea. I'm inspired by your tireless wor...Thanks, Bea. I'm inspired by your tireless work at <a href="http://beaelliott.blogspot.ca/%22" rel="nofollow">PROVOKED</a> on behalf of the huge segment of the sentient being population that can't speak up for themselves. I hear you about temptations to do the same. Being human, we have the ability to fool ourselves. Here's to catching ourselves in the act more often!David Ashtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18339979176989832285noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-803595820939776322.post-13510973627494614842013-10-29T17:43:33.409-07:002013-10-29T17:43:33.409-07:00David I don't know much about Zen - I'm no...David I don't know much about Zen - I'm not a student, but I think I attempt the practice on most occasions of my life. What I see here is the same false logic and misconceptions that people try to perpetrate when they advocate for "humane" animal use. It's a disguise. They try very, very hard to find the right way to do the wrong thing. And of course in my view (as simple and naive as it is) - The fundamental harm can never be white-washed to the good. <br /><br />I hope I'm learning along the way to avoid the temptations to do the same...Bea Elliotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13981537551810309024noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-803595820939776322.post-32223865892229188692013-10-27T20:23:48.203-07:002013-10-27T20:23:48.203-07:00I could ponder that one for quite a while.I could ponder that one for quite a while.David Ashtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18339979176989832285noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-803595820939776322.post-87359056135913487662013-10-27T20:20:52.480-07:002013-10-27T20:20:52.480-07:00Good point. When you have lost absolutely everythi...Good point. When you have lost absolutely everything, what is left may be worth checking out.David Ashtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18339979176989832285noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-803595820939776322.post-85556854777533992442013-10-27T16:42:26.572-07:002013-10-27T16:42:26.572-07:00Is perfect enlightenment a fantasy or is our idea ...Is perfect enlightenment a fantasy or is our idea of what perfect enlightenment "is" the fantasy?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-803595820939776322.post-40575531652858834682013-10-27T09:42:33.249-07:002013-10-27T09:42:33.249-07:00Rather than fostering fantasies about perfect enli...Rather than fostering fantasies about perfect enlightenment, if a practice like Zen can lead one to a sense of total disillusionment with all escape plans, then there is some possibility of wisdom.Bobhttp://theconsciousprocess.wordpress.com/2012/11/26/the-myth-of-enlightenment/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-803595820939776322.post-40683112009039498662013-10-27T08:09:10.958-07:002013-10-27T08:09:10.958-07:00I checked the blogroll to make sure your blog was ...I checked the blogroll to make sure your blog was on it. The link to recent posts from <a href="http://drizzleanddew.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">Go Cloud, Run Water</a> was broken, but it's fixed now.David Ashtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18339979176989832285noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-803595820939776322.post-51271516301066424592013-10-27T08:05:00.513-07:002013-10-27T08:05:00.513-07:00Hi Kogen, thanks for stopping by! I'm glad we ...Hi Kogen, thanks for stopping by! I'm glad we found each other again!David Ashtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18339979176989832285noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-803595820939776322.post-86298370173510179752013-10-27T07:18:04.611-07:002013-10-27T07:18:04.611-07:00And nice blog roll! And nice blog roll! Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-803595820939776322.post-1337183410862316262013-10-27T07:06:45.773-07:002013-10-27T07:06:45.773-07:00Dear David,
I keep losing you and finding you......Dear David, <br /><br />I keep losing you and finding you..."when I meet you again it shall be in mountains!"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com